I just got back from Israel (well, actually I’m on the coach using the free wifi – will the wonders of the modern age never cease?). It was a fascinating trip, and one worthy of comment for a number of reasons, some more obvious than others.
First, the trip. I was asked to go over by Nadav, a friend of a friend who used to live in London and has started booking punk shows in his home country. Having never been before, I jumped at the offer (more detail later). I flew in last Thursday, after going through a seriously impressive security routine at the check-in desk at Heathrow. Israel, on arrival, is hot, dusty and mostly coastal from what I saw – not unlike Florida, much of the time in the places I went. I played two shows – Tel Aviv and Haifa – and had a great time. The scene is pretty nascent out there right now, but there’s a lot of cool honest punk kids hungering for live music. My experience of most places is skewed by the fact that I generally hang out with punks, who are generally disaffected and middle class. In this case it was further skewed, in the sense that I didn’t go (or have the chance to go) to any Palestinian areas, or hang out with any Palestinian kids. The Israelis I was hanging out with were, to the last, intelligent, thoughtful and good fun.
We went Jerusalem on a day off, which was fabulously surreal – wandering around the old town is like being on the set of Life Of Brian. The history oozes from every surface and is very much a living concern. I also, personally, found the idiosyncrasies of the various Abramic religions, always a little silly, to be much more ridiculous when presented in such claustrophobic proximity. Seeing orthodox jews, Christian monks and muslims wandering around scowling at each other because of theological disputes (which usually come down to arguments over what types of meat to eat when, or something), was pretty barmy.
It was intriguing also to be in a society which, on a surface level, feels very westernized, very much like America, in both good and bad senses. But beneath the veneer of comfortable democracy and consumerism is the shadow of militarism (conscription to the IDF is still mandatory for men aged 19-21) and threat (you get your bags searched for bombs going into shopping malls). I did my best to talk politics as much and as sensitively as I could. My most interesting conversation was with a guy who turned out to be Shimon Peres’ grandson. Much I learned.
And now for the philosophy. Since announcing the shows until literally just now, I’ve been receiving emails and comments from people with opinions on the fact of me going over to play – opinions to which they are very much entitled to have and share. Most of them were intelligent and thought-provoking. I wanted to state my views, for the record, here. I have something to say both about the debate, which breaks down into two separate arguments, and the meta-debate.
The first argument is the basic one over the rights and wrongs of the situation in this part of the Middle East. I really can’t be particularly arsed to get into a big discussion about this here – partly because I’m no expert, and partly because it usually devolves into the same old bullshit – both sides accusing anything the other says of being “propaganda”, both sides being vindictively selective in the facts they consider, both sides eventually saying something tedious about Hitler. For what it’s worth, I think the basic problem of two competing nationalisms claiming the same territory is a thorny one. I think Israel has a real problem in that its leadership schooled itself in an era of genuine existential threats (1967, 1973, to say nothing of the Holocaust) but is applying that mindset to a fundamentally different reality with a different balance of power. I think the Palestinians are suffering, but I think too many people are too quick to overlook what an awful bunch of shits Hamas are. Whatever. Like I say, I’m no expert, and I’ll leave the fine print to others.
The second argument is how any of this relates to the business of playing shows in Israel. It’s not at all clear to me that, even if I did unconditionally condemn the Israeli government (which I don’t), I shouldn’t play shows there. The shows were organized by private citizens without any state involvement, and I’m not in the habit of judging individuals by the actions of their government. We in the UK and the USA, after all, have the Iraq war and occupation hanging over our collective heads. Of course I’m aware that some artists are boycotting Israel, as is their right; however it seems morally duplicitous to me to boycott Israel and not (say) the USA. Maybe big artists can afford to boycott one small state for the sake of some media grandstanding, and not the other, their main cashcow?
So those are the arguments. I have my positions on them, which are far from unassailable. But I also wanted to comment on the meta-debate, the terms and the manner of the debate. In fact this is the thing that has particularly got my goat. In the negative commentary I’ve received, the tone is usually either implicitly or, more often, explicitly, saying that, by going to Israel, I am either stupid, ill-informed or morally bankrupt. That actually really fucks me off. The fact is, I’m a grown up with some basic grasp of history and politics, I thought about it, made a decision on my own actions and carried it out. You are free to disagree, such is the joy of pluralism. I just think it’s pretty lame to accuse me of being any number of things (stupid, fascist, not punk (ha!), in it for the money (double ha!)) because we hold differing opinions. I respect people who intelligently disagree with me, and I’d ask the same consideration in return.
Basically if punk means unquestioningly agreeing with anyone else’s opinion, whoever they may be, then fuck punk. But luckily, that’s not really how I understand the term. G’night.
You can order England Keep My Bones through any of the online retailers below.
You Rock Frank, couldn’t agree more and can’t wait to see you at your next show
Well said. And appreciate that you don’t just spout about being respectful so people will listen to you, but actually listen to other people respectfully. Even when you disagree! Ha. Thanks.
Frank. As usual, you hit the point right on mark. I won’t bother going on about what a genius lyricist you are, but only point out that yet again, you stated the facts and the obvious so poetically. Just read your whole blog on my Blackberry while buzzed from the Hawley Arms (which was a feat in itself!). Keep up the amazing work! Xx
…balanced. Apparently that was far too short a comment to be posted, so I’ll add that it is complicated (Israel and its politics) and never black and white; those who try to suggest that one side is right or wrong are misguided at best.
I would kill to be able to spread music to any corner of the earth frank your the man to all degrees and people need to have a better grasp of what makes someone currupt
Hey, just thought I’d like to say that I think your going to Israel was pretty awesome! Whatever the country’s government does involving politics generally has nothing to do with the general citizens (are all of our country in agreement with the David Cameron/Nick Clegg alliance? I think not) and to be honest they probably need a good old cheer up! I think it’s great that you went there even though it is not a stable place so you could have easily been hurt. I agree with your views on the situation in that both sides have done bad things but you cannot deny that the recent naval actions from Israel are rather over the top.
However, pleeeeeaaaaase stop mentioning how punk you are. It’s rather annoying and slightly ironic as isn’t the point of punk to be different and yet stereotyping yourself to take a certain image is doing just that. :/
Still. I love your music! Ballad of me and my friends = most played song on my itunes:)
Not overly sure why I sent this message so sorry for wasting your time:/ …if you do actually read this.
As a Jewish Israeli philosophy I couldn’t agree more with your words, you hit it dead on as far as my point of view allows me to see. People tend to jump onto idealogical bandwagons way too fast, awesome to see a free thinking individual that allows himself to rely upon his reasoning faculty and heart along.
So thanks for coming over, the Tel Aviv show was absolutely brilliant and touching, hope to see you again!
(Marx was right after all)
I visited Israel (Haifa) a couple of years ago for ten days – totally surreal experience. Haifa has the most ‘diverse’ culture with a lot of Arabic folk living there, and towards the end of my stay, I realised that there was a lot of resentment from the Jewish people I was working with because of that, under the initial “happy families”-type facade.
Agree with you on the first point, far too complicated really to discuss on a blog, but one point I would make is that while Hamas are total shits (to put it mildly), when it boils down to it, they’re a bunch of militants with home-made grenade launchers made out of drainpipes trying to attack the Israeli army – kinda the equivalent of attacking a lion with a stick. In my view. So while Hamas are shits, the Israeli forces use totally disproportionate force against them. Or at least that’s what I feel.
Second point I disagree on, I suppose partly because I do condemn the Israeli government. (To me, they act like spoilt children with a serious anger management issues and refuse to accept that they’ve ever made any mistakes.)
And really shit that you’ve got abuse. I disagree with your decision, but when it comes down to it, the only person you have to be accountable to is yourself, and if you feel you’re justified in going (as you obviously did/do) then that’s cool.
Wow, as has been said by many of those who’ve commented before me, you certainly do have an amazing way with words. I am both an American and a Jew, and I couldn’t agree with you more – both sides need to start thinking and doing in the here and now – leave behind that militaristic ideology/mindset. A very simplistic way of putting it, I know. As far as the majority of the population go – both Israeli and Palestinian – they are just people who want to make it through the day with the ability to provide for their families, and keep them safe and intact. So kudos to you for bringing them great music along with your usual amusing onstage banter.
Frank, Glad you enjoyed it, very well written and glad you made up your own mind with proper reasoning and passion to spread your music/message.
Looking forward to seeing you live again at Glasto- immense music and lyrics! <3
I would agree with what the person above has said about Hamas being like attacking a Lion with a stick however and although they're both shit and citizens shouldn't be punished for their govts (ha! we'd get no-one in the UK!!!) i personally still am horrified by Israels actions and oppression of the Palestinians and it was seen preety clearly whilst you were there with 9 being killed! I think the artists who have openly condemned the States actions and Boycotting it are amazing and Disagree with your comments about them just trying to get a media grandstand- I as an individual boycott Israel and since it's obviously nothing to do with media or money it must be something to do with my conciounce and morals- yet i can also see clearly what you're trying to say about ordinary citizens not suffering and choosing yourself so grats really.
hi there,
first of all thank you for an amazing show in Tel Aviv!
secondly, to the girl with the hat and all the other people who think we “over reacted” – if you are trying to cross a border with a cargo boat without going throgh customs , u might end up getting shot at by the local authorities. simple as that.
i would like to see an unauthorised cargo boat trying to reach the US coasts..i dont think the coast guard will be serving them cookies…
better take a closer look at the facts of what realy happend there. and by the way – i’m pro-palestinian. (but not pro hamas)
im not that smart when it comes to politics but i think if people are giving you shit they need to get a grip.
You should feel sorry for folk who are proberly sitting in the same town they were born in to scared to take chances giving you shit for playing music where you want to.
I also think your talent isnt a gift im sure youve worked really hard and deserve to make it super BIG!!(one day when your massive i can say i told that dude he had hot skinny legs in wellington)
Your decision to go made me think of a few things. I actively boycott Israeli products but that’s not to say I think the Palestinian side of the argument is any better for various reasons.
At first thought I thought you were wrong to go. But the more I thought the more I reconsidered and thought ‘why not?’. And I realised just how much at odds my reaction was to my own experiences in life. My recent trip to Ireland was the third time I have been and each time I’ve found it intensively thought provoking and indeed emotional at times, because of an incident that happened to me in my childhood…
Instead of engaging in a proper (and more educated) debate about the Israeli/Palestinian situation we are simply swallowing what we are told and what we are taught to believe. It doesn’t help.
All I know is that, the route to peace is through understanding, and you can not hope to understand if you simply refuse to enter some sort of dialogue at some point, no matter how unsavory the other party might be. The point is to not necessarily change minds, but at least to make them question and to ask them to think again and to ask the question ‘Why?’. Indeed, it may be you who ends up completely reversing how you feel about the subject, rather than the other way round.
I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve learnt about traveling… it has this amazing power to change your life when you have even the simplest conversation.
My problem with this blanket boycott by musicians is that if all artists decide to boycott the region then we are potentially all missing out on a very big opportunity to show a different, fresh and outside point of view from the ones that those who live there hear daily. We neglect the fact that actually there are plenty of people within both sides that disagree with what is going on and are more open-minded and are willing to listen to others. Particularly young people. And music is a such a fantastic medium to bridge divides and heal the wounds of conflict.
Change doesn’t happen overnight – it can take a generation or more, but you have to start by persuading people that there is an alternative to the status quo. If the only influence people are exposed to are those insular and narrow-minded ones from their own community and figures of authority then it becomes so much more difficult to bring about change. You simply dwell on the history and the injustices of the past rather than trying to build a future for all.
I think of Iran. I think of China. What do they fear most? Discussion and outside influences and different points of view.
I don’t believe there’s any easy solution here or an ideal way to protest – all have flaws. I certainly wouldn’t want to go to Israel myself. But I simply can not be critical of anyone, like you, who wishes to go because I can see the very real benefits from going even if its essentially a non-politically motivated trip or holiday.
mustsaysomething:
Some people might say that as the ship was heading for Gaza (which is illegally occupied by Israel) then the Israeli forces have no place intercepting it…
And as for your point about the US, there is something in between “serving them cookies” and shooting them point blank in the face.
Thanks for that, Frank. Well thought-through and thought-provoking stuff – but you write from the heart too. I’m also ambivalent on this subject and, as a musician, if invited by a private individual to play there, i would face the same dilemmas. I like to think i’d have made the same decision though. Glad you benefited from taking the positive course – perhaps more out of friendly curiosity than conviction in the first instance ? As a ‘first-time around’ punk from the 70s, I wish you’d explain to me, if you can find time, what you think the attitudes and feelings are which represent ‘punk’ sensibilities in the 21st century – looks like you might have some insight.
I really respect Frank for giving some thoughts on his trip…
… However would you have gone and played a gig in South Africa in the 1980s?
AGREED! When it comes to Israel/Palestine, I don’t know what or who to believe. It angers me how polarizing the issue is. It’s a sad situation, all around. I hope for peace, but am not overly convinced it will happen anytime soon.
Frank, we in America don’t all agree on the war so thank you for not lumping us all into one box same as Israel. We are all people with different views who happen to live in a certain country. If you looked at every country you were to play in you could find something evil. We love your music and can’t wait till you come back to the USA. Are you watching the game on Saturday? We have a special at our local pub, 3.00 Sam Adams and 3.00 Newcastle, go USA!!!
The Person who said would you go and play south Africa in the 80′s has a very important point, boycotts and international pressure played a big part in ending the apartheid, Israel/Palestine situation is not much different and the big artists such as the Pixies and Elton John that have boycotted so far raise the issues rather than ignoring them and playing anyway- this is not a critism of Frank as through these blogs and highlighting his totally fair enough reasons he’s done just as good a job whilst not ignoring the ordinary citizens of Israel- both do a good job which is why i agree applaud Frank for Playing but also those who are boycotting.
to (MustSaySomething)- That’s a complete non-argument, it’s an illegal blockade and the ship was in international waters- a humanitarian ship with peaceful activists- there’s no excuse for what the Israeli state did and I find it hard to believe someone who claims to be pro-palestinian would try so hard to defend the actions against the aid workers or the people of Gaza in general.
Let the music do the talking Frank. Music fans do not control what their governments get up to so should not be punished by lack of shows in return.
@Mark
Maybe if the ordinary civilians are punished long enough, they’ll rise up and turn against the government.
We all know how that strategy works
I think it’s important to understand that Isreal as a state was only properly created in the last century. It has good reason to be paranoid but understand I’m not defending the actions of either state. Palastine has kids tv shows in which a rabbit promises to rid the world of the Jews, Allah willing. If you don’t believe me watch “You Have Been Watching” kids tv special. I’m only 17 (nearly 18!) so my understanding and knowledge are nowhere near complete and as all of my knowledge from recent events comes from bits of news reports I’m not really sure what to believe.
Frank is right as far as I’m concerned to go and play the shows- for the normal people of the country it must be good to know not everyone from the western world thinks of them as despicable due to their government.
On SA in the 1980s, I know as a rugby fan that for South Africans sport was a major part of their life and helpped demonstrate their “supremacy”. Music is much more individual than sport as far as I’m concerned and as such has a lesser impact on mass perception, acting more as an inspiration.
Sorry if I’ve displayed woeful ignorance but I thought I’d put in my two pence worth. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong
@mustsaysomething
Exactly! Nail on the head!
Also why wouldn’t Frank want to make more money ?
The Cargo boat wasn’t going to your Israeli territory it was going to Palestinians.
So the situation would be better compared to the American attempting to interfere with a Ship entering Mexico or Canada.
Like the guy said about the lion and the stick.
If you have a pitbull and a poodle in a dog fight. You’d be more concerned with controlling the pit bull. Because it can do more Damage and its more powerful.
If a man and a 5 year old girl are fighting who should be exercising restraint?
Its the same with a dispute between two nations/peoples.
Israel is massively powerful and rich, and Palistinians on the other hand are starving and have rocks as weapons.
(96% of the population relies on UN food aid)
With great power comes great responsibility.
Israeli Government have all the power. Therefore they have the greatest ability to encourage/discourage steps toward peace.
Them and our governments (US and UK) who stand by and enable Israel.
A great book on this if anyone is actually interested enough is Chomsky’s latest:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hopes-Prospects-Noam-Chomsky/dp/0241145015
Glad you had a great time. And happy to read your input about the boycott. I couldn’t agree more.
[...] a blog posted on his website following his return to more ethical and democratic shores, Frank posted a lengthy update on his [...]
Hamas may be shits but they legitimately rose to power on the back of Israel’s unwillingness to negotiate with Fatah. Indeed, Israel initially funded Hamas in order to destabilise Fatah and the PLO. More recently, more people were killed by the Israeli murder of the activists on the flotilla than by all the rockets fired by Hamas and other groups within the Palestinian territories in the past few years. What’s more, Hamas are a resistance group who are going to thrive as long as Israel sustains its attacks on the Palestinian people. That’s to say, if Israel are forced to end the blockade and ease the human rights abuses, support for Hamas will falter. The issue of two competing nationalisms may well be a thorny one, but that’s not the issue here. The issue is putting pressure on Israel to end the blockade and end this humanitarian crisis. What follows after is a different issue.
As for the boycott, the people joking about the Israeli people rising up as a result of these boycotts are, naturally, hilarious but are sadly missing the point. Israel is a tiny nation, which can only survive with the support of the US. That support remains strong, despite wavering a bit over the last few years. Support is, nevertheless, strongly influenced by the mood of the populace. In turn, that mood is heavily influenced by cultural movements. When artists such as the Pixies boycott Israel, there are two primary effects: 1) attention is drawn to the issue and 2) opposition to the Israeli regime’s treatment of the Palestinian people emerges. Nowadays, the unquestioning support of the Israeli regime which was prevalent only ten or twenty years ago is no longer predominant. This isn’t because Israel’s usefulness for the West has changed or lessened, but because people have begun to pay attention to what Israel is doing.
Still, it’s not that Frank didn’t boycott which annoys me most, but that he chooses to write this crappy list of excuses.
@Nick
I think you are very unfair and wrong in saying that it’s a list of crappy excuses- Frank arrived at a decision, as he explained, through reason and a reason is not an excuse. An excuse is when you try and retrospectively justify something you’ve done which you know is wrong.
I don’t know enough of what either side has done to be happy commentating I just know that neither side is right, in terms of government actions.
@Gordissima
An excuse can simply be an attempt to justify something you’ve done. Which this is. Still, if there’s a problem with semantics, I’m happy to rephrase: I think the justification given is poor and the reasoning very weak. And I find it insulting that Frank has reduced the plight of millions of people to this simplistic, crude overview, in a bid to justify his own actions.
Nick got it in one with “I find it insulting that Frank has reduced the plight of millions of people to this simplistic, crude overview, in a bid to justify his own actions”
I’m glad you made your own reasoning but your arguments and reasoning are IMO weak unlike those of the Artists boycotting, not much applause from me and I think the fact that some of the comments on here in support of playing mention how it’s palestine/aid ships fault show who you’ve kept happy. WELL DONE YOU DOLT.
Happy to see some debate on here, most of it reasoned. Nick, I think you make some interesting points, but I still think you missed the thrust of my argument about the meta-debate. My points are not “crappy excuses”; they’re “statements you disagree with”. Similarly, Ciara, I’m not a “dolt”, I’m a “person with a different opinion”. I haven’t, and won’t, call people I disagree with names. Resorting to insults, in my opinion, is usually the behaviour of people who can’t win arguments.
I really don’t think Frank went over there as ambassador for the United Kingdom, or the west. He just went as a man, and shouldn’t have to represent the opinions of others, who he clearly does not agree with. And equally the people of Israel shouldn’t be judge or place in their same category of their government, as I for one who not want to be judge on the actions of mine. And to quote Million Dead, his borders are placed on the bottom of his boots.
And a boycott of Israel, to me, sound like a hideous patronizing statement of western superiority. And if Frank was to boycott all nations that were currently involved in illegal occupations of foreign territories, then he wouldn’t be allowed to play a gig in his home town.
@Jacob
I apologize for the spelling mistakes that I’ve just noticed.
I can’t argue with Frank’s second post, promoting debate on the issue is half the fight and undoes some of the media spin and bias and clearly we are having a cross nation and community debate here too
To the post Frank is JUST a man, he is and we are all JUST individuals, the boycott is collective action to make your small action make a big difference. That’s the point.
Im not sure how the boycott sounds like “a hideous patronizing statement of western superiority” when it was organised by grassroots Palestinian organisations as part of no-violent resistance during the second Intifada (uprising) in 2001.
Individuals aren’t judged by their governments but societies are and as part of British society I boycott Israel to make a stand against our government and British business who support Israel (also I buy British because its greener and cheaper). Israel has recently voted in one of the harshest governments in a long time, and when the 9 activists died I didn’t see a protest in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem (like for example in 1982 after the massacres at the refugee camps by Israeli supported forces).
I asked if Frank would have joined the boycott of South Africa because the situation is so similar, this is recognised academically and by the media: the Guardian wrote a mass piece on comparing the situation in 2008. Im sure Frank wouldn’t have gone to South Africa (but i don’t want to put words in his mouth).
I think comparing Israel to South Africa is a very native, and uneducated comparison. Sure there are similarities but they are also massive differences that if you ignore than you are completely ignoring the complexities and history of the Middle East and religious conflict in general.
For starters, apartheid initially forbade multiracial sport, which meant that overseas teams were very much affected if they wanted to play South Africa if they weren’t all white. It was something that forced other countries to adopt racially selected teams – or completely barred them from being able to play there. In was put simply, if you pardon the pun, a much more black and white debate about who was ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ which was affecting other countries quite directly.
The cultural and sporting boycotts were UN lead as a result of international condemnation and a collective opposition to South African politics throughout the world. And ironically you could argue that those countries that broke the boycott lead to more publicity and more debate and more pressure on South Africa anyway. Which is why I have to question just how much of an impact such boycotts actually had. They were started in the 1950s and 1960s but it wasn’t until the late 1980s when eventually there was increasing pressure from outside in the form of the threat of US economic sanctions and UK using economic leverage against the government in combination with a time when there was an international movement towards more political correctness and equality in general throughout the world. Yes, they were a starting point, but I’m not sure that they would be either appropriate or have the same effect in Israel anyway.
Israel is a far more complex situation with it being a central focal point for wider political and religious division in the world with a lot of other nations having a stake in the future of the region as a whole. Why are there no UN lead cultural and sporting boycotts in the same way as there was with South Africa? Because there simply isn’t the same international opposition to Israel on many levels. And this is now 2010. Cultural boycotts particularly, are going to have a significantly smaller impact than they would 25 years ago, because of the internet. You simply can’t cut off a country in the same way that you could previously. And interestingly, the Palestinian leadership does not support economic boycotts.
What works in one situation, isn’t necessarily right in another and in another time. I definitely think provoking debate is a good thing and ultimately the right way to go to put pressure on international governments (not just Israel itself), but I don’t think that boycotting the country is the sole way to do that.
Sam, as an Israeli who has many Palestinian friends, you totally lost me with this line, and I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t agree either. You should have a better look at the economic and social situation in Israel itself – Most Israelis are not rich and powerful, and most Palestinians aren’t starving and (thank god) don’t usually use weapons.
Leave those arguments to people who would like to see Israel die rather than peace in the middle east.
Google “Flotilla Tel Aviv protest”, there are about 267,000 results, including reports of the street clashes that followed the incident, and the thousands who protested and still protest.
It’s not what you didn’t see, it’s what you didn’t want to see – Israelis who aren’t following the stereotype made up by the PC radical-left.
[...] another perspective, here is a blog post from English folk-punk musician Frank Turner articulating why he chose to go ahead and play a show [...]
Very interesting website, but you must improve your logo graphics.
Food Aids are badly needed by third world countries like in Africa in Asia.”,*
food aids are badly needed by third world countries and we really need to give something to the poor.,’;
My nephew just got a tattoo. It looked great and it had meaning for him. So it made sense. I took him out for a beer to celebrate. My niece went with us and she asked me what I thought about her getting a tattoo. I told her absolutely not. Any other male chauvanist pigs out there that think women are beautiful just they way they are.
rty ghawrw D fht
[...] a blog posted on his website following his return to more ethical and democratic shores, Frank posted a lengthy update on his [...]